John Blaxland and Clare Birgin join us to discuss the Trump indictment and Australia's intelligence services on this Democracy Sausage.

Why is the Australian Signals Directorate, a seemingly esoteric part of the Department of Defence, becoming increasingly important to Australian society?

Why have Australian officials tended to be more secretive than their counterparts in other democracies?

And what are the allegations against former United States President Donald Trump?

Professor John Blaxland and Clare Birgin join Professor Mark Kenny and Dr Marija Taflaga to discuss signals intelligence, their new book, Revealing Secrets, and why it almost didn’t make it to print.

John Blaxland is a Professor of International Security and Intelligence Studies at ANU Coral Bell School of Asia Pacific Affairs and a regular media commentator.

Clare Birgin is a former Australian diplomat, who served as ambassador in Hungary, Serbia, Kosovo, Romania, North Macedonia and Montenegro.

Marija Taflaga is the Director of the ANU Centre for the Study of Australian Politics and a Lecturer at the ANU School of Politics and International Relations.

Mark Kenny is a Professor at the ANU Australian Studies Institute. He came to the University after a high-profile journalistic career including six years as chief political correspondent and national affairs editor for The Sydney Morning Herald, The Age and The Canberra Times.

Nominate outstanding ANU graduates for the 2023 Alumni Awards.

Democracy Sausage with Mark Kenny is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We’d love to hear your feedback on this series, so send in your questions, comments or suggestions for future episodes to

This podcast is produced by The Australian National University.

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